Re: Courses and classes, take two

["Alexey Parshin" <alexeyp@gmail.com>]

Let The Boss sort 'em out! :)

2007/5/24, Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh <ilya@total-knowledge.com>:

Alexey Parshin wrote:
> Without atacking or defending your idea:
>
> a) Class is not a group. It's more complicated then group as in
> group_list. So, I don't see much of the contradiction here.
I was kind of hoping to reduce class to just another group, but you are
right - there is more to it.
>
> b) The best place for the flag (if any) is person_to_group table.
Yes.
>
> Now, attacking your idea.
> Having is_admin flag in person_to_group table doesn't make me unhappy.
Cool.
> But, having a flag for a teacher in the same structure seems useless.
> We must have a group for teachers since we gotta grant 'TEACH'
> permission to that group.
Mmm... This is sort of changing, I guess... Teachers are teaching
classes now, not objects. I
am not 100% sure what to do from here, we need input from The Boss.
> However, teachers may likely be group admins. This is much less likely
> for students :) And, considering that we may have a dedicated admins
> (that can't teach or study) - we need a separate group for them.
We _can_ do it that way. I don't see much of a problem, except once we
have group with access to groups, permissions
become a bit of a mess. Oh well...
>
> 2007/5/22, Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh <ilya@total-knowledge.com
> <mailto: ilya@total-knowledge.com>>:
>
>     Regarding the "admin" flag, it's fairly generic - i.e. any kind of
>     group
>     can have admins,
>     and the easiest way to implement it is to add members, with
>     special flag
>     to mark them.
>     Now, making special-cases (like making class's teacher just another
>     member with special
>     flag) is not an idea I like myself, but groups linked to groups (i.e.
>     group that has teacher
>     rights over another group - class) seems needlessly complicated as
>     well.
>     If you can find a
>     solution that avoids both problems, I'll be very very happy :)
>
>     Alexey Parshin wrote:
>     > Can you tell more about these 'flags' to mark people as admins? I
>     > really don't like it at the moment, but it's possible that I just
>     > don't understand your idea.
>     >
>     > 2007/5/22, Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh < ilya@total-knowledge.com
>     <mailto: ilya@total-knowledge.com>
>     > <mailto: ilya@total-knowledge.com
>     <mailto:ilya@total-knowledge.com >>>:
>     >
>     >     There is not class-tied-to-a-course limitation.
>     >     It is possible to sign-up existing group (i.e. give it "Study"
>     >     permissions) to a different courses.
>     >     At least if we do not special-case it.
>     >
>     >     Now, after thinking for a while, I'm leaning toward using
>     special
>     >     flag
>     >     to mark group ( i.e. class)
>     >     admins, rather then separate group. There are also "course"
>     admins -
>     >     these _are_ separate
>     >     group, which has rights to actual Course UMO (modify rights
>     to TLT and
>     >     can also define
>     >     rules for course sign-up).
>     >
>     >     Teachers are fun one. I don't know if we should bind them to a
>     >     course of
>     >     to a class.
>     >     Perhaps what should be done, is,
>     >     1. Actual teachers of a class are members of class group
>     with yet
>     >     another flag
>     >     set
>     >     2. In order to become teacher of a class, one needs to be a
>     member of
>     >     "Course teachers" group (rules for membership of that group are
>     >     defined
>     >     by course admins)
>     >
>     >     It is possible to simplify whole mess, by saying "there is a
>     >     teachers group
>     >     for a course" and anyone in that group can teach any class,
>     but I
>     >     somehow
>     >     do not like the idea.
>     >
>     >     Now, student being class admin is also possible, and even
>     slightly
>     >     simpler
>     >     then Alexey described. All he has to do is create course, and
>     >     revoke his own
>     >     teacher permission (teacher cannot study the course, so
>     being student
>     >     and teacher
>     >     are mutually exclusive things).
>     >     He can still be admin, and add new teachers/admins/etc. to a
>     class.
>     >
>     >
>     >     Alexey Parshin wrote:
>     >     > I just explained how your scenario could be implemented. You
>     >     aked - if
>     >     > a student wants to gather a bunch of people together and
>     then find a
>     >     > teacher, can we support it? I described - how it may be done.
>     >     > The normal way is much simpler:
>     >     > 1) A teacher creates a class for a course. He
>     automatically gets
>     >     > teaching (for the whole course) and group administration
>     (for this
>     >     > class) privileges.
>     >     > 2) He allows other students to register for a class.
>     >     >
>     >     > If needed, a teacher may register other teachers for the
>     same class.
>     >     >
>     >     > The limitations:
>     >     > - A class is tied to the course. I, personally, don't see
>     much sense
>     >     > in that. We may have a class that studies several courses,
>     if we
>     >     want.
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     > 2007/5/22, Anatoly Volynets < av@total-knowledge.com
>     <mailto:av@total-knowledge.com>
>     >     <mailto: av@total-knowledge.com <mailto:av@total-knowledge.com>>
>     >     > <mailto:av@total-knowledge.com
>     <mailto: av@total-knowledge.com> <mailto: av@total-knowledge.com
>     <mailto:av@total-knowledge.com >>>>:
>     >     >
>     >     >     Alexey Parshin wrote:
>     >     >     > Well, in what I suggested, this situation is possible:
>     >     >     > 1) Student creates a class. This means he becomes an
>     admin
>     >     and a
>     >     >     teacher.
>     >     >     > His right to teach is propagated on the whole course.
>     >     >
>     >     >     Looks a bit artificial. I don't like such things. If
>     someone
>     >     wants
>     >     >     to be
>     >     >     a student only and happens to be an admin this situation
>     >     must not
>     >     >     force
>     >     >     him to take on teaching functions even formally. The
>     reason
>     >     like "this
>     >     >     app just works this way" doesn't sound for the end user.
>     >     >
>     >     >     > 2) He registers himself as a student.
>     >     >     > 3) He allows other student to register, or they just
>     register
>     >     >     for the new
>     >     >     > class.
>     >     >     > 4) He finds a real teacher and registers him as a
>     teacher
>     >     and an
>     >     >     > admin. The
>     >     >     > new teacher gets the teach right for the course.
>     >     >     > 5) If necessary, real teacher can exclude the
>     original group
>     >     >     creator from
>     >     >     > teachers and admins. At least, any admin can do it.
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > 2007/5/22, Anatoly Volynets < av@total-knowledge.com
>     <mailto:av@total-knowledge.com>
>     >     <mailto:av@total-knowledge.com <mailto: av@total-knowledge.com>>
>     >     >     <mailto:av@total-knowledge.com
>     <mailto: av@total-knowledge.com>
>     >     <mailto:av@total-knowledge.com
>     <mailto:av@total-knowledge.com>>>>:
>     >     >     >>
>     >     >     >> Sounds reasonable. I think a student can be an
>     admin too,
>     >     but
>     >     >     am not
>     >     >     >> sure. Situation: some guy wants to study a class, wants
>     >     it with a
>     >     >     >> teacher, but there is no teacher as for now. The guy
>     >     finds one
>     >     >     and asks
>     >     >     >> to take over. The teacher says: gather people and I
>     will
>     >     teach
>     >     >     you (the
>     >     >     >> reasons can be different, money, for example).
>     >     >     >>
>     >     >     >> Alexey Parshin wrote:
>     >     >     >> > Here is a fresh view of the class requirements.
>     Please,
>     >     >     correct me if
>     >     >     >> I'm
>     >     >     >> > wrong.
>     >     >     >> >
>     >     >     >> > 1) Class may include few groups. The following
>     groups come
>     >     >     into my
>     >     >     >> > overheated mind (defines the permission type):
>     >     >     >> >  - Students (STUDY)
>     >     >     >> >  - Group Administrators (GROUP ADMINISTRATION)
>     >     >     >> >  - Class Teachers (TEACH)
>     >     >     >> >
>     >     >     >> >  It is possible that teachers may be
>     administrators, too.
>     >     >     >> >
>     >     >     >> > 2) When class is created, Group Administrators and
>     >     Class Teachers
>     >     >     >> include
>     >     >     >> > the class creator.
>     >     >     >> >
>     >     >     >> > 3) TEACH permission is propagated through the
>     whole tree of
>     >     >     UMOs in
>     >     >     >> the
>     >     >     >> > course.
>     >     >     >>
>     >     >     >> --
>     >     >     >>
>     >     >     >> Anatoly Volynets, Co-Founder
>     >     >     >> total-knowledge.com < http://total-knowledge.com>
>     <http://total-knowledge.com>
>     >     < http://total-knowledge.com>
>     >     >     >> culturedialogue.org <http://culturedialogue.org>
>     < http://culturedialogue.org>
>     >     < http://culturedialogue.org <http://culturedialogue.org>>
>     >     >     >>
>     >     >     >>
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >     --
>     >     >
>     >     >     Anatoly Volynets, Co-Founder
>     >     >     total-knowledge.com <http://total-knowledge.com> <
>     http://total-knowledge.com>
>     >     <http://total-knowledge.com>
>     >     >     culturedialogue.org <http://culturedialogue.org> <
>     http://culturedialogue.org>
>     >     < http://culturedialogue.org <http://culturedialogue.org>>
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     > --
>     >     > Alexey Parshin,
>     >     > http://www.sptk.net
>     >
>     >     --
>     >     Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh
>     >     Total Knowledge. CTO
>     >     http://www.total-knowledge.com
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > --
>     > Alexey Parshin,
>     > http://www.sptk.net
>
>     --
>     Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh
>     Total Knowledge. CTO
>     http://www.total-knowledge.com
>
>
>
>
> --
> Alexey Parshin,
> http://www.sptk.net

--
Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh
Total Knowledge. CTO
http://www.total-knowledge.com

-- 
Alexey Parshin,
http://www.sptk.net